Tips for (learning to) driving stick while in Europe?

"valsidalv, reminding you that infiniti is an option" (valsidalv)
09/23/2015 at 11:06 • Filed to: None

Today I took a lesson in a manual car in preparation for my upcoming trip to Europe. After a quick stop in Paris, I’ll make my way over to Milan and I want to rent a car for the remainder of the week in Italy.

It’s not my very first time driving a stick but, at 1 hr, it’s the most seat time I’ve had. It was... “ok”. I didn’t instantly love it that way I thought I would but I gotta keep at it. I do have a motorcycle so I am familiar with being in charge of my own riding experience. And I’ve played a lot of Forza, so I’m not totally new to this. Durr.

The car I drove today was a Veloster turbo. I felt like I had to shift up from 1st to 2nd quite early (@ 3000 RPM I was only around 20/25 km/h). The car I’m thinking about renting in Europe is a Fiat 500X. Hertz has it for around €200 a week whereas a regular 500 is listed at €79 a day ! What’s up with that?

Anyways. I wasn’t a fan of my driving and it was frustrating me. I am quite smooth with my shifts on my bike but it wasn’t working so well in the Veloster. I was able to take off from a stop just fine by the end but 1st to 2nd was never smooth. I think that I was taking too long with the clutch and the revs were dropping by the time I shifted up. I tried to compensate by giving a bit of throttle but that was pretty disastrous. It was quite a different experience from my motorcycle, that’s for sure.

So fellow Opponauts - I am wondering if you have pointers (links to some videos that you endorse maybe) that will give me things to focus on and practice while I’m tearing up the Italian roads.

DISCUSSION (24)

Ash78, voting early and often > valsidalv, reminding you that infiniti is an option
09/23/2015 at 11:11

The good news is with a rental car, you can ride the clutch all you need :D

You’re going to find small country roads and constant steering inputs to be far more important than the shifting. Just don’t forget to downshift (forget rev-matching, let the rental clutch do it!) because it’s easy to leave the car in high gear if you’re distracted, then bog down and stall as you come to a stop. Shifting at or below 3,000 during normal driving is typical in most engines. The Fiat may run up a bit higher with the small engine.

Driving stick is pretty easy. Driving stick WELL takes a lot longer. You don’t have to worry about the second one.

Seat Safety Switch > valsidalv, reminding you that infiniti is an option
09/23/2015 at 11:14

Milan is a superstar of a city. It’s the only place in the world I’ve ever been that had suburbs that outshone the financial district. Park the car somewhere and walk around; take in the markets, sit in an apartment building’s bench and enjoy the sun. Do what the Italians do and take it easy and appreciate the moment. I wish I were back there.

As for driving stick smoothly, it will just take practice. I liken it to learning a musical instrument. Don’t be afraid to slip the clutch more than you are - when I started I treated the clutch like an on-off switch and was impressed to find when I later dropped the transmission that there was virtually no wear on the clutch.

They are burly as hell as long as you don’t drive full throttle in a high-torque car with your foot gently resting on the clutch pedal.

As for driving in Italy: if you see a Piaggio Ape anywhere near you, let it do whatever it wants. Those guys are kamikazes.

CalzoneGolem > valsidalv, reminding you that infiniti is an option
09/23/2015 at 11:22

All you need is seat time. Drive, drive and drive some more.

valsidalv, reminding you that infiniti is an option > Ash78, voting early and often
09/23/2015 at 11:24

3000???!!!! But I shift between 5 and 6k on my bike! Sometimes 10 if I’m feeling particularly rowdy. Different worlds... But you are right. My automatic G35 shifts at those RPMs as well. However it’s got a bunch more power than the Veloster so maybe that’s it. Thanks for the input.

Snuze: Needs another Swede > valsidalv, reminding you that infiniti is an option
09/23/2015 at 11:25

I was in the same boat you are in - I’d messed around in a couple manual cars in parking lots, but that was it, when I bought my first manual car (WRX). I had been riding motorcycles for a few years, so I was familiar with shifting. I thought I’d be better, but that skill doesn’t translate well (hand clutch is not the same as foot clutch, etc.)

I’m not familiar with the Velosters specs, but it could be that it has a very short first gear. My Cruze is the same way, I can rip through first gear, only gets me up to like 20 MPH or something, and then all the rest of the gears are nicely spaced. It’s done a lot with economy cars with small or low torque engines (turbo cars typically have sub-par off boost performance due to lower compression, etc.). It may just take some practice to get used to.

Ash78, voting early and often > valsidalv, reminding you that infiniti is an option
09/23/2015 at 11:27

If I’m driving a V8 tooling around town, 2k shifts work fine. I once drove a 6MT Vette all over a suburban town with the goal of never going over 1500RPM (a dare from a coworker). I did it...and wasn’t even a slowpoke.

valsidalv, reminding you that infiniti is an option > Seat Safety Switch
09/23/2015 at 11:28

Duly noted. How many days would you say one needs in Milan? I’ve got roughly 7 days to be in Rome with stops in Venice, Florence, and maybe Naples.

OPPOsaurus WRX > valsidalv, reminding you that infiniti is an option
09/23/2015 at 11:31

my WRX was my first stick. it took me a month before I was mildly comfortable in it. just get more seat time

Seat Safety Switch > valsidalv, reminding you that infiniti is an option
09/23/2015 at 11:33

Honestly, I’d skip Florence and Naples and just double down on Rome and Milan.

Rome is the greatest city in the world, and you absolutely must get the granita con panna from Tazza d’Oro. It’s world famous and you’ll thank me later.

I spent three days in Milan but near the end of it we were dropping by real estate agencies to try and figure out if there was an affordable pied-a-terre. Our plan is to go back in a few years and do a week in Milan and a week in Rome.

Cinque Terre is also worth visiting, but it’s definitely out of the way.

valsidalv, reminding you that infiniti is an option > Snuze: Needs another Swede
09/23/2015 at 11:37

How is it that, once I passed the friction point and got the car rolling, I was able to release the clutch and it went on its merry way without any additional throttle? On my bike it’ll just stall unless it’s trying to accelerate (throttle or a hill). That really weirded me out. Also, as you said, the foot clutch feels like it has a mile of travel yet a very small friction point window. And it’s heavy! Does not compute.

TheRealBicycleBuck > valsidalv, reminding you that infiniti is an option
09/23/2015 at 11:45

Turbo cars really start making power around 3,000 rpm. This is where the torque is really starting to come on strong and the chassis responds by shifting the weight to the rear of the car. If the power is suddenly removed, the weight rocks forward. Application of power in second gear then becomes challenging as the engine is out of the power band and the chassis is unsettled.

The solution is to ease out of the throttle before engaging the clutch. This will settle the chassis before the power is completely disengaged in preparation for the shift into second.

You could also keep your foot in the throttle longer and shift at 5,000 rpm. When you make the shift into second, the engine should be around 3,000 rpm and still making similar power. It’s much easier to be smooth between shifts that way.

valsidalv, reminding you that infiniti is an option > OPPOsaurus WRX
09/23/2015 at 11:47

I have always wanted an STi but the new Focus RS seems to be a really good competitor and, even though I’m a Subaru fanboi, has edged out the STi in my mind. Hopefully I build my confidence over the week and don’t make a total fool of myself if I get the RS...

valsidalv, reminding you that infiniti is an option > TheRealBicycleBuck
09/23/2015 at 11:55

Very clear explanation - thanks for that.

OPPOsaurus WRX > valsidalv, reminding you that infiniti is an option
09/23/2015 at 11:56

the only thing that you can hurt is your clutch and wallet

Snuze: Needs another Swede > valsidalv, reminding you that infiniti is an option
09/23/2015 at 12:06

Bikes have virtually no torque compared to cars, but the engines see similar loads at low speeds (friction, rolling resistance, etc.). That and motorcycle engines are very peaky. I’m not sure what you’re riding, but you mentioned somewhere shifting at 10k rpms. If you’ve ever done a full pull through a gear you notice the bike is brisk, but not great at low RPMs, then around about 6k it “wakes up” and pulls like crazy. Car engines have more displacement, and much lower redlines, so the power band is more “compact” shall we say, meaning torque is more evenly distributed across the rev range, at least compared to a motorcycle.

I used to ride a CBR-1000RR, it made like 165HP and maybe like 90 ft-lbs of torque... but it didn’t make that 90 ft-lbs until like 6,000rpm and the 165HP came on at 11,000 or something. My Cruze makes 180HP and 200 ft-lbs of torque. So <10% more HP, but more than double the torque. And I’m making all that torque by 3,000 rpm, and hitting peak horsepower at about 5,800. That’s right, my car is completely done and through it’s powerband before the bike even hits peak torque.

They are just completely different vehicles tuned for different purposes.

Also, addressing your comment in your original post about giving it some gas. That’s a normal thing to do on a bike as you let the clutch out during a gear change - bike engines have very light reciprocating parts (crankshaft, rods, pistons), very small flywheels, and usually tiny intake plenums above the throttlebodies, so they shed revs like crazy. In the time it takes you to pull the clutch, snag the next gear, and start letting the clutch back out, the engines RPMs have already dropped way below the appropriate RPM for the gear you just shifted into. Blipping the throttle helps. On most modern, stock cars, you don’t need to do that. They have heavy parts, heavy flywheels, bigger intake plenums, and usually somewhat laggy electronically controlled throttles, which means they don’t shed revs very fast at all. There are a few exceptions - my Cruze is lazy, so when I shift 1-2 I push the clutch in, lazily slide the shifter back to 2, and pause like half a second before I start letting the clutch out to let the revs match. But in my sister’s Acura RSX-S, as soon as you push the clutch in you have to snatch 2nd and start letting the clutch out, in a big hurry. That engine sheds revs almost like a bike does.

My advice would be to try this - get to a big parking lot or back road, somewhere safe where you can afford to take your eyes off the road for a few seconds. Get the car going in first up to a reasonable speed, maybe 3,000(ish) rpms. Then shift quick but deliberate - off the gas, shove the clutch in, snatch 2nd, and briskly let the clutch out (don’t side step the pedal, just let it out pretty fast) and watch the tach, see what RPMs it drops to. The car will jerk a bit, but the point is, you want to see that RPM. Now repeat, but this time try when you shift, watch the tach and as the needle starts to fall, start letting the clutch out just before that RPM. So if you shift at 3,000 and end up at 2,000 in 2nd, then maybe start letting the clutch out as the needle drops down to 2,200. Play around with this, letting the clutch out faster or slower, sooner or later. Soon you’d feel the “rhythm” you need to get it right.

Jobjoris > valsidalv, reminding you that infiniti is an option
09/23/2015 at 12:09

Skip Naples, unless you’re using it for the boat to Sicily, Ischia or Capri. I don’t get the love SSS has for Milan (and I’ve been there a lot), unless you’re into shopping. Cinque Terre: Definitely. San Remo: Yes. Rome: Yes. Florence: Yes. Luca: Yes. San Marino: Yes. Venice: Definitely. The lakes, Sud-Tirol, all awesome. And, if you’re there during the winter, definitely make a stop-over at Sankt Anton Austria!

For that learning to drive stick: Take your time. That’s all it takes. Nothing better to learn it in in a rental car.

valsidalv, reminding you that infiniti is an option > Snuze: Needs another Swede
09/23/2015 at 12:20

Thanks for the amazingly detailed response! What you described with your sis’ RSX is what I felt with the Veloster. My shifting was slow and the car would drop its revs quite a bit. Hopefully whatever I rent in Europe is a bit more forgiving like your Cruze.

I ride a Ninja 400R. It’s my first bike so I wanted to keep the displacement on the low side while I learn. Roughly 45 HP and under 30 ft-lbs of torque.

Snuze: Needs another Swede > valsidalv, reminding you that infiniti is an option
09/23/2015 at 12:31

You’re welcome.

I drove a base Veloster once, it was very pokey, I’m surprised you’re having the opposite problem with the turbo.

Wow, I didn’t know they made a 400R. I know they had the 250 forever, and then a couple years ago went to a 350R. Sounds like a good bike though. I have an old Honda CB-1 which has a 400cc 4-cylinder that makes about 50-55 HP. It’s my favorite little bike to ride - the engine winds up to 13,500 rpms, and it just wants to play. It’s not a brutal fast as a 600 or 1000 but it’s so light and flickable. I’m glad to see the 400 class is making a comeback. I always thought the 250s were actually slightly dangerous in the fact that they could barely get out of their own way, and when you’re on a bike sometimes speed and nimbleness are you best defense.

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > valsidalv, reminding you that infiniti is an option
09/23/2015 at 12:43

Just as the best way to learn a language is a reference book and an extended visit to the country that speaks it, the best way to learn stick is to know a few basic do's and don'ts and have no choice.

RWS Motorsport > valsidalv, reminding you that infiniti is an option
09/23/2015 at 12:44

If you find yourself pulling up the clutch too fast and stalling, say outloud ‘slowly’ as you lift your foot. You’ll find it works really well, even if you do look slightly perculiar.

Basically as others have said, its just practise beyond that.

valsidalv, reminding you that infiniti is an option > Snuze: Needs another Swede
09/23/2015 at 13:23

The Ninja 300 is currently Kawasaki’s entry level offering. The 400R was only available for two/three model years (mine is 2011) I believe and it wasn’t sold in the states. It was, however, sold in Canada, and that’s how I ended up with one. I thought the 300 might be a bit wimpy especially at highway speeds, as you said. My 400 has some extra horsepower but also quite a bit more weight so I don’t know if it’s any faster. It’s actually based off of the 650R but with a smaller engine. At 100km/h I’m doing 6000 RPM in 6th gear, which isn’t ideal but I’ll ride around on it for one more season until I’m ready for a full-0n sportbike.

MrFurzzy > valsidalv, reminding you that infiniti is an option
09/23/2015 at 13:25

The big difference is that a car often red lines somewhere in the range of 6500 and 7500. My car red lines at just under 7k, and I always shift at 2k unless I’m accelerating quickly.

Phyrxes once again has a wagon! > valsidalv, reminding you that infiniti is an option
09/23/2015 at 14:07

For me when driving a particular manual transmission car for the first time finding the clutch engagement point and how heavy the clutch is makes all the difference. That said I hate driving my wife’s current car as the clutch in her Corolla is set up so differently than my Jetta that I have to actively pay attention to it when starting from a stop.

Snuze: Needs another Swede > valsidalv, reminding you that infiniti is an option
09/23/2015 at 14:10

Smart man. The 650R is supposedly a good bike. It was made to compete with Suzuki’s massively popular SV650 and by all accounts was probably almost just as good.

The 400 bikes are big in Japan, because they are taxed based on displacement, and my understanding is they take a big hike after 400cc’s. The CB-1 that I have is very much the same as your 400R, it was designed to meet fall within the Japanese regulations, and only sold for the US for 2 years, 89-90. It showed up at the same time as the original CBR600 and ended up being almost as expensive, so buyers opted for the 600 almost every time. Sales tanked and after 2 years it disappeared, which is a shame because it was a fun bike.